Shooting center fire silencers wet. (Updated, works well)

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ranb
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Shooting center fire silencers wet. (Updated, works well)

Post by ranb »

I currently shoot my 9mm and 22lr cans wet, this greatly helps when I take them apart and wipe them down after I return home. The gunk does not harden and lock the baffles to the tube.

I have aluminum cans for my 338 whisper, 458 socom and 510 whisper. They are all rather large volume reflex style cans with cone or K baffles. They are also hard to get apart after shooting a hundred rounds through them dry. I was thinking of pouring 2-4 ounces of water into the chamber around the barrel to keep things wet throughout the can to keep the gunk from hardening.

The powder charges range from 12 to 30 grains of H110, subsonic only. Is shooting these cans wet risky at all? Thanks.

Ranb
Last edited by ranb on Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by Bendersquint »

ranb wrote:I currently shoot my 9mm and 22lr cans wet, this greatly helps when I take them apart and wipe them down after I return home. The gunk does not harden and lock the baffles to the tube.

I have aluminum cans for my 338 whisper, 458 socom and 510 whisper. They are all rather large volume reflex style cans with cone or K baffles. They are also hard to get apart after shooting a hundred rounds through them dry. I was thinking of pouring 2-4 ounces of water into the chamber around the barrel to keep things wet throughout the can to keep the gunk from hardening.

The powder charges range from 12 to 30 grains of H110, subsonic only. Is shooting these cans wet risky at all? Thanks.

Ranb
12-15gr H110 probably borderline but the 30gr of h110 is definitely not suggested. If you made them from SS or Ti then no problem but I wouldn't risk my Form1 can doing that.

Thats just me.
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by ranb »

The 510 whisper uses up to a 30 grain charge, but the can is 2x18 inches so it is rather low pressure.

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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by Bendersquint »

ranb wrote:The 510 whisper uses up to a 30 grain charge, but the can is 2x18 inches so it is rather low pressure.

Ranb
Take a chance with it, its your can, I wouldn't personally. if you feel the need to do it only put the media at the exit end not anywhere near the blast chamber.

I hope your tube is T3 anodized at least, same goes for your baffles.
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by ranb »

Why is putting it in the blast chamber bad? Does it raise pressures? Why does anodizing help?


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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by Bendersquint »

ranb wrote:Why is putting it in the blast chamber bad? Does it raise pressures? Why does anodizing help?


Ranb
Pressure is the highest there to begin with and will only increase with a media in it.

Anodizing will protect the surface as it will oxidize. It will also be ALOT stronger as well.
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by ranb »

Thanks for the info.

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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by Bendersquint »

ranb wrote:Thanks for the info.

Ranb
Anodizing will dramatically increase the lifespan of your suppressors, with all that you have done I am shocked that you didn't know this.
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by ranb »

I have read about anodizing in the past. But as far as I know anodizing only increases corrosion and wear resistance. I never heard anything about it increasing component strength.

I know that aluminum oxide is very hard, but doesn't this increase in hardness also mean a lowering of fracture toughness? I also figured that the thermal stress would crack and remove the oxide layer. If I am wrong, I would like to know more.

I have read about people using anodizing to put a protective layer on the exterior, but not the interior. Learn something new everyday I guess.

I suppose I could anodize my parts after blasting them clean? I have no room for growth on the bearing surfaces, but the only surfaces that benefit from the anodizing are those in front and exposed to the gas stream right?

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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by Bendersquint »

ranb wrote:I have read about anodizing in the past. But as far as I know anodizing only increases corrosion and wear resistance. I never heard anything about it increasing component strength.

I know that aluminum oxide is very hard, but doesn't this increase in hardness also mean a lowering of fracture toughness? I also figured that the thermal stress would crack and remove the oxide layer. If I am wrong, I would like to know more.

I have read about people using anodizing to put a protective layer on the exterior, but not the interior. Learn something new everyday I guess.

Ranb
It does increase component strength(not a ton but can handle higher pressures after processed) it also resists corrosion, erosion and wear resistance dramatically.

It doesn't change the 'fracture toughness' or have any effect on 'thermal stress cracks'.

There is a reason that almost every manufacturer anodizes all their aluminum components. Some do T2, most do T3. Exterior AND interior. Only 1 manufacturer that I am aware of does not anodize their baffles with the justification of harmonics being affected or something that I have never seen documentation on. Their baffles test the same dB before and after anodizing.

You do alot of Form1's you should protect them as long as you can. Depending on the buildup that you have you may not be able to anodize them anymore though.
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by ranb »

I can blast the living s--t out of the baffles to clean them up I guess.

I have never seen a form 1 can other than my own. I have also never seen any take apart cans that I could examine closely. Silencers are just not that common in Western WA due to only getting the right to use them less than a year ago and the general attitude towards gun ownership and use here.

Thanks for the advice.
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by doubloon »

I've heard anodizing reduces fatigue strength but maybe there are different types of anodizing and maybe fatigue strength is not important.
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by Bendersquint »

doubloon wrote:I've heard anodizing reduces fatigue strength but maybe there are different types of anodizing and maybe fatigue strength is not important.
I haven't heard any of that, and if it did it is obviously not a concern since most manufacturers do it. Besides if you got the can hot enough for fatigue strength to be an issue you need to take a break and put down the beta Sig P226 mag.
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by Bowen1911 »

doubloon wrote:I've heard anodizing reduces fatigue strength but maybe there are different types of anodizing and maybe fatigue strength is not important.
It's always important with aluminum.
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by Bowen1911 »

Bendersquint wrote:
ranb wrote:I currently shoot my 9mm and 22lr cans wet, this greatly helps when I take them apart and wipe them down after I return home. The gunk does not harden and lock the baffles to the tube.

I have aluminum cans for my 338 whisper, 458 socom and 510 whisper. They are all rather large volume reflex style cans with cone or K baffles. They are also hard to get apart after shooting a hundred rounds through them dry. I was thinking of pouring 2-4 ounces of water into the chamber around the barrel to keep things wet throughout the can to keep the gunk from hardening.

The powder charges range from 12 to 30 grains of H110, subsonic only. Is shooting these cans wet risky at all? Thanks.

Ranb
12-15gr H110 probably borderline but the 30gr of h110 is definitely not suggested. If you made them from SS or Ti then no problem but I wouldn't risk my Form1 can doing that.

Thats just me.
I would do it.

If both barrels are 16 inches, and the .338 uses 12 grains, and the .510 uses 30 grains, neglecting rifling and case dimensions gives you a volume of 1.4356 in^3 for the .338 and 3.2685 in^3 for the .510 Divide by the powder charge to get a ratio of volume to powder, and you get .1196 in^3/grain and .1090 in^3/grain for the .338 and .510 respectively. Thats less than 9% difference of the ratio of bore volume to powder charge.

Thats not even taking into account the volume of the blast chamber
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by mg81 »

Getting back to your original question.

It has been my experience that a wet can picks up way more crap than a dry can, perhaps defeating your purpose of easier to clean and take apart.

Additionally, if you are doing any amount of shooting I would think the water maybe well gone by the end of your shooting session.

Why not just drop the the suppressor into a bucket of water (or you choice of solvent) for a day and let it soak. I would think the same softening effect would happen.

I like putting very thick grease (like car bearing) on my parts as I assemble them (all surfaces get wiped, the tube, baffles, all surfaces). This will also attract crap and lead to a quicker build up, but the areas that don't get exposed to an intense jet of hot gas (like two or three baffles up and the tube) will just wipe clean, the grease forms a protective film that keeps the crap from sticking to the parts. Also prevents baffles from locking to the tube.

But I am shooting subsonic pistol rounds in rifle length barrels, so your experiences may vary.
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by ranb »

I have tried soaking my aluminum take apart cans in ed's red (kerosene, mineral spirits, acetone and ATF) for a week and it did nothing to help get the cans apart. The only thing I found that helps is not letting the gunk harden prior to taking it apart. I shoot my 22lr and 9mm cans wet then push out the baffles as soon as I get back home.

My goal is to keep the gunk wet, as long as I take the can apart after each use, then the amount of gunk does not matter. I know this sounds like a real pain, but taking apart a can with a hammer and an aluminum bar is a bad way to go.

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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by mg81 »

I don't doubt you about having problems taking apart you cans once the crud dries.

I am just surprised that you find that keeping the can wet when shooting is dramatically different than just boiling the can in a pot with water (and perhaps a little TSP).

I find that soaking in non-polar solvents (i.e. petroleum based stuff) does a marginal job, I like water. It often works better, is cheaper, and is much nicer to deal with.

I would think if the water kept it soft while shooting boiling for a while would get the crud to the same level of softness without the added problem of moist interior of the silencer attracting crap that a dry silencer would not.
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by Bendersquint »

ranb wrote:I have tried soaking my aluminum take apart cans in ed's red (kerosene, mineral spirits, acetone and ATF) for a week and it did nothing to help get the cans apart. The only thing I found that helps is not letting the gunk harden prior to taking it apart. I shoot my 22lr and 9mm cans wet then push out the baffles as soon as I get back home.

My goal is to keep the gunk wet, as long as I take the can apart after each use, then the amount of gunk does not matter. I know this sounds like a real pain, but taking apart a can with a hammer and an aluminum bar is a bad way to go.

Ranb
My experience is that the surface will stay moist while the root will harden and dry out.

Just keep that in mind, we won't even bring up aluminum oxidization since you don't anodize your baffles.
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by ranb »

mg81 wrote:I am just surprised that you find that keeping the can wet when shooting is dramatically different than just boiling the can in a pot with water (and perhaps a little TSP).
I'll give hot water a try. My 300 whisper can decided to gunk itself together after my last trip to the range.

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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by doubloon »

Bendersquint wrote:
doubloon wrote:I've heard anodizing reduces fatigue strength but maybe there are different types of anodizing and maybe fatigue strength is not important.
I haven't heard any of that, and if it did it is obviously not a concern since most manufacturers do it. Besides if you got the can hot enough for fatigue strength to be an issue you need to take a break and put down the beta Sig P226 mag.
It probably matters what alloy and what type of anodization but there is some reference material out there. Most of the references to reduced fatigue strength speak to the brittleness of the hardened outer layer as a place for cracks to start.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 7211010395

http://www.amazon.com/Surface-Treatment ... 0904477096
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by Bendersquint »

doubloon wrote:[
It probably matters what alloy and what type of anodization but there is some reference material out there. Most of the references to reduced fatigue strength speak to the brittleness of the hardened outer layer as a place for cracks to start.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 7211010395

http://www.amazon.com/Surface-Treatment ... 0904477096
The first link talks about an alloy that I have never seen in person nor know of anyone in the firearms industry using it.

Some alloys are brittle from the get go others are difficult to work with compared to other alloys.

The second one is an almost 25 year old book, its a bit outdated and there have been quite a few advances over the years, not to say it might not be valuable but at that cost I will pass at buying that book to read if its valid or not.

I am guessing RanB used 6061 aluminum right?
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by doubloon »

It seems the principles are the same. A layer of the metal is being converted to a harder, stronger but more brittle material.

Granted the properties of the underlying material need to be considered and maybe the fatigue limits of newer alloys are well beyond the stresses of this particular application. But my question remains if the surface of even the newer alloys is more prone to cracks when anodized than when not.

I agree there have to be newer sources of information but the process and the result don't seem to have changed all that much ... a hard outer shell bonded to a more flexible core.

I raised the question because I wasn't sure if there was someone here who actually knew enough about the process to explain some of what I've read in more detail.
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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by ranb »

Bendersquint wrote:
doubloon wrote:I am guessing RanB used 6061 aluminum right?
All of my aluminum is 6061 except for my 17 hmr can. 6061 was the strongest alloy available from Online Metals when I made these silencers years ago. In the 17 hmr can I used 304 SS for the blast baffle and 7075 for the remaining baffles. It only has about 500 rounds through it so far but they seem to be holding up well. It is a welded can so I use a bore light to inspect the guts.

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Re: Shooting center fire silencers wet.

Post by doubloon »

I guess it depends on the type and depth of the anodizing and how much mechanical stress is put on the treated material.

Even though all the references I can find are old they all talk about 6061 since it is an alloy that was developed in 1935, so maybe the age of the book is not important unless we think the people who actually developed the alloy are dumber than everybody else today.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Gt-CDa ... ue&f=false

Since the concerns seem to be mechanical in nature maybe it's really not a heat related concern but one of pressure cycles?

6061-T6 has a yield strength of 35,000 psi ... much higher than -T4 and -O. Are there other 6061 alloys available? I'm guessing as long as the pressure stays well below 35,000 psi flex would be greatly reduced and fatigue would be less of a problem? But then maybe it flexes more the hotter it gets?
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