Interchangeable caliber silencer

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mj30wilson
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Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by mj30wilson » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:33 am

Does anyone make a caliber interchangeable silencer?
Like swap the baffles and endcap and turn your 45 can into a .22 can etc?
I'm a reasonable guy most of the time but i must insist factory rifles now come with 1/8 m.o.a guarantee to support my fly wing shooting pastime.

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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by chrismartin » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:39 am

Due to the laws (well, not really "laws", ATF rulings and decisions) in the US, this cannot happen.
Each baffle is considered a silencer buy the ATF. You would have to serialize and pay for a $200 for each baffle.

You can, however, use a large caliber silencer on a smaller caliber, though at a reduced performance level.
So, you can put a .45 silencer on a .22, though the hole will be much larger.
This works pretty well for using a .45 silencer on .40 and 9mm.
.22lr really needs it's own silencer for many reasons (performance, size, weight, sight height, etc)

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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Historian » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:47 am

mj30wilson wrote:Does anyone make a caliber interchangeable silencer?
Like swap the baffles and endcap and turn your 45 can into a .22 can etc?
Not in USA.

Much along the lines of going to a dealer and asking for a two ton pick up
truck which, with a few switches in panels make it into an Aston Martin
Vantage for the weekends.
" Bond, Rufus Bond!". :)

Using a .45 can on a .22, with a neoprene wiper could conceivably
lower sound and be better than nothing. If you are OCONUS then machine a .22 tube with splines slit
longitudinally and put into center. It might of course be an interesting surprise
at the range to see it flying toward the target.

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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:07 am

chrismartin wrote:Due to the laws (well, not really "laws", ATF rulings and decisions) in the US, this cannot happen.
Each baffle is considered a silencer buy the ATF. You would have to serialize and pay for a $200 for each baffle.

You can, however, use a large caliber silencer on a smaller caliber, though at a reduced performance level.
So, you can put a .45 silencer on a .22, though the hole will be much larger.
This works pretty well for using a .45 silencer on .40 and 9mm.
.22lr really needs it's own silencer for many reasons (performance, size, weight, sight height, etc)
This is the way to go in the US.

By larger and shoot smaller through it.

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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Artful » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:35 am

mj30wilson wrote:Does anyone make a caliber interchangeable silencer?
Like swap the baffles and endcap and turn your 45 can into a .22 can etc?
No one does that but you could be the first - design your own and form 1 it, we'll support you in this project.
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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by rogerme » Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:06 pm

Doing this would be logical and smart. Having said that the ATF will not allow it.
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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by mj30wilson » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:47 pm

I was thinking maybe using a sleeve like a barrel liner.
It would have the necessary holes and wipers for the caliber in it.

Obviously larger in diameter that would slide into the back end and a collar on the end to stop forward advancement.
The collar would fit flush/be recessed into the back 1/2 threaded portion. It may even be able to be screwed inside the 1/2 threaded diameter.

It would kinda be like a shotgun caliber reducer in looks only.

Can it be done legally since it is no a baffle?
I'm a reasonable guy most of the time but i must insist factory rifles now come with 1/8 m.o.a guarantee to support my fly wing shooting pastime.

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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:17 pm

mj30wilson wrote:I was thinking maybe using a sleeve like a barrel liner.
It would have the necessary holes and wipers for the caliber in it.

Obviously larger in diameter that would slide into the back end and a collar on the end to stop forward advancement.
The collar would fit flush/be recessed into the back 1/2 threaded portion. It may even be able to be screwed inside the 1/2 threaded diameter.

It would kinda be like a shotgun caliber reducer in looks only.

Can it be done legally since it is no a baffle?
No it would not be legal.

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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Artful » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:27 pm

I would make eccentric off center with mono-core designed with multiple holes that would index say quarter turn - then you would just disassemble and index to caliber you want and put back on. Register with largest diameter and say and lesser diameters on form 1.
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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:30 pm

Artful wrote:I would make eccentric off center with mono-core designed with multiple holes that would index say quarter turn - then you would just disassemble and index to caliber you want and put back on. Register with largest diameter and say and lesser diameters on form 1.
Not legal either because by changing the bore diameter you are changing caliber.

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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by rogerme » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:05 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
Artful wrote:I would make eccentric off center with mono-core designed with multiple holes that would index say quarter turn - then you would just disassemble and index to caliber you want and put back on. Register with largest diameter and say and lesser diameters on form 1.
Not legal either because by changing the bore diameter you are changing caliber.
Plus it sounds like a accident waiting to happen.
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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Artful » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:00 pm

rogerme wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
Artful wrote:I would make eccentric off center with mono-core designed with multiple holes that would index say quarter turn - then you would just disassemble and index to caliber you want and put back on. Register with largest diameter and say and lesser diameters on form 1.
Not legal either because by changing the bore diameter you are changing caliber.
Plus it sounds like a accident waiting to happen.
I don't think it would have to be as the mono-core could be made to cause interference with barrel's threaded different lengths so as long as you had the shoulder able to meet the back of the can it would be correct diameter or larger. As far as ATFE do you have a link to their specific law that says you must keep the same caliber - I know they have a regulation that says if you make it in only one caliber you must notify them of a change of caliber but do they have a reg saying you can't designed as multiple caliber device?
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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:41 am

You can only have 1 caliber on a silencer ATF Form. Not even the .gov gets multiple calibers.

Multiple calibers on silencer forms will be denied. You can shoot sub-calibers through it.

From the ATF FAQ in regards to manufacturers repairing/replacing a silencers internals...."new and different component parts may be used as long as the silencer retains the same dimensions and caliber." If it were legal then why is the same caliber a requirement and not calibers?

Once a silencer is made you can not change the caliber, until it is made the Form1 can be amended however.

Don't you think that if it were legal to make "multiple caliber" silencers and not "multi caliber capable" silencers that there would be lots of reports/posts/forum/blogs and chatter about it and not the consistent "illegal" responses regardless the forum it is asked on?

Even as a manufacturer we can't even get approval to make one for experimental or .gov use only. So if a licensed 07/02 can't do it why would a Form1 stamp owner be?

You don't hear about it because it is illegal, unless you discovered a loophole that noone else has figured out since 1934.

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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Artful » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:09 am

Bendersquint wrote: You can only have 1 caliber on a silencer ATF Form. Not even the .gov gets multiple calibers.

Multiple calibers on silencer forms will be denied. ...

You don't hear about it because it is illegal, unless you discovered a loophole that noone else has figured out since 1934.
talked to NFA branch and the examiner I talked to said to register SBR in one caliber/barrel length *(this caliber had to be marked on receiver!), then put additional calibers/barrel lengths in the "Additional Description" field on the Form 1 for SBR creation. He went on to add that if I wanted to use other calibers in the future, I could send them a letter stating my intentions, and they'd send me back something to keep with the paperwork. Why would this not work with a suppressor that only rearranges it's existing parts and doesn't add or subtract parts, That's what I'm wondering.
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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by mj30wilson » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:36 am

Could you register the same can separately 3 time each having different calibers?
I'm a reasonable guy most of the time but i must insist factory rifles now come with 1/8 m.o.a guarantee to support my fly wing shooting pastime.

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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Artful » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:40 am

No, only one form is required for each NFA item you create. So additional form 1 in different caliber would be denied as same serial number which has to be unique.
And they approve the Tube not the baffle stack/mono-core - you could of course create 3 different can's, but that's not the point here is it.
At least that's my line of thinking - ATFE of course has their own line of thinking.

You just have to get the can to fit the pprwrk (ie it has to be marked the same on the can as on the Form 1) and if you have any other changes that are permanent it must be documented. I know they used to allow MULTI for caliber on SBR's then changed their minds/reg's so that one caliber must be shown on pprwrk & receiver.
But you still can shoot more than one caliber upper on SBR AR receiver's - but must keep original upper configuration unless you notify and change pprwrk.
If you have other uppers and they are short barreled you should have it noted on your pprwrk.

I can't see where this same ruling can't be applied a to suppressor tube if you have the right design.
They don't want you to have parts lying around to change the caliber so

- all the parts have to do dual duty and be in the can when assembled, but you should be able to rearrange the parts to get what you want

- and we can shoot sub caliber thru our cans now so that wouldn't change and they should have no objection

- you'd just have to make it so that the end cap is the largest caliber but with a wipe on the end it would seal up to smaller diameter bullet.

- And of course design the baffle stack/mono-core to handle multiple calibers quietly.

We just need to approach ATFE with correct pprwrk and design to get it approved.
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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:49 am

Artful wrote:
Bendersquint wrote: You can only have 1 caliber on a silencer ATF Form. Not even the .gov gets multiple calibers.

Multiple calibers on silencer forms will be denied. ...

You don't hear about it because it is illegal, unless you discovered a loophole that noone else has figured out since 1934.
talked to NFA branch and the examiner I talked to said to register SBR in one caliber/barrel length *(this caliber had to be marked on receiver!), then put additional calibers/barrel lengths in the "Additional Description" field on the Form 1 for SBR creation. He went on to add that if I wanted to use other calibers in the future, I could send them a letter stating my intentions, and they'd send me back something to keep with the paperwork. Why would this not work with a suppressor that only rearranges it's existing parts and doesn't add or subtract parts, That's what I'm wondering.
SBR is fine to change calibers, silencers you can change the registered caliber.

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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:49 am

mj30wilson wrote:Could you register the same can separately 3 time each having different calibers?
No, each silencer tube can only be 1 caliber and 1 serial number.

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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:11 am

Artful wrote:No, only one form is required for each NFA item you create. So additional form 1 in different caliber would be denied as same serial number which has to be unique.
And they approve the Tube not the baffle stack/mono-core - you could of course create 3 different can's, but that's not the point here is it.
At least that's my line of thinking - ATFE of course has their own line of thinking.

You just have to get the can to fit the pprwrk (ie it has to be marked the same on the can as on the Form 1) and if you have any other changes that are permanent it must be documented. I know they used to allow MULTI for caliber on SBR's then changed their minds/reg's so that one caliber must be shown on pprwrk & receiver.
But you still can shoot more than one caliber upper on SBR AR receiver's - but must keep original upper configuration unless you notify and change pprwrk.
If you have other uppers and they are short barreled you should have it noted on your pprwrk.

I can't see where this same ruling can't be applied a to suppressor tube if you have the right design.
They don't want you to have parts lying around to change the caliber so

- all the parts have to do dual duty and be in the can when assembled, but you should be able to rearrange the parts to get what you want

- and we can shoot sub caliber thru our cans now so that wouldn't change and they should have no objection

- you'd just have to make it so that the end cap is the largest caliber but with a wipe on the end it would seal up to smaller diameter bullet.

- And of course design the baffle stack/mono-core to handle multiple calibers quietly.

We just need to approach ATFE with correct pprwrk and design to get it approved.
We HAVE approached the ATF with many designs that would have done 3 different caliber and all are denied. The reason..........you can not change the caliber of the silencer, if it is registered as a 45ACP(the largest caliber) then at any time you MUST be able to shoot 45ACP through it without destroying the can. If the core was configured for 22lr then destroying the core is guaranteed with a 45ACP bullet.

Its been tried and tried and not a single one is approved, you can shoot smaller bullets through the large hole but by changing the bore hole you are changing the caliber of the silencer.

You are not the first person to have this idea, many many people have had this idea since silencers became regulated.

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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Artful » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:36 am

Bendersquint wrote:
Artful wrote:
Bendersquint wrote: You can only have 1 caliber on a silencer ATF Form. Not even the .gov gets multiple calibers.

Multiple calibers on silencer forms will be denied. ...

You don't hear about it because it is illegal, unless you discovered a loophole that noone else has figured out since 1934.
talked to NFA branch and the examiner I talked to said to register SBR in one caliber/barrel length *(this caliber had to be marked on receiver!), then put additional calibers/barrel lengths in the "Additional Description" field on the Form 1 for SBR creation. He went on to add that if I wanted to use other calibers in the future, I could send them a letter stating my intentions, and they'd send me back something to keep with the paperwork. Why would this not work with a suppressor that only rearranges it's existing parts and doesn't add or subtract parts, That's what I'm wondering.
SBR is fine to change calibers, silencers you can change the registered caliber.
So did you miss type or are you saying registered caliber and smaller thru it is fine and as long as the front and back stay the registered caliber then as long as ATFE approved the design it would be fine. Or did you mean CAN"T change the caliber, and you have a link to a regulation that quotes that?
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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:12 pm

Artful wrote: So did you miss type or are you saying registered caliber and smaller thru it is fine and as long as the front and back stay the registered caliber then as long as ATFE approved the design it would be fine. Or did you mean CAN"T change the caliber, and you have a link to a regulation that quotes that?
I mistyped.

Shooting the registered caliber and smaller is fine.

The caliber is not solely determined by the endcap or mount, its the bore of the silencer. I have seen a .50" bore on a 9mm silencer but it was because the bore was so far out of concentric that it was needed to prevent a baffle strike and at that it was barely preventing it. Commercial can no less.

Did you read what I quoted from the ATF FAQ? Clearly says that you can not change the diameter or the caliber of a silencer.

I say go for it. Submit a Form1 for a "multiple caliber silencer", not "multi caliber capable silencer" but a true changing the diameter of the bore silencer, send the ATF drawings and a letter asking if it is legal to do.

Please post your results because it is obvious that someone that is in the industry and has attempted to do what you suggest and was denied legal approval apparently did it wrong and you found the loophole.

I am sure other companies would be very interested in the loophole as well not to mention all of the Form1 applicants that have been denied.

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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Artful » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:31 pm

I'll try and find time in the next week to talk to them about my idea. After all they were helpful with SBR pprwrk.
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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:38 pm

Artful wrote:I'll try and find time in the next week to talk to them about my idea. After all they were helpful with SBR pprwrk.
It would need to be in writing, remember chit chat doesn't hold up in court when you are prosecuted.

If you are going to chat about the idea you already posted then I have already told you what they will say. I brought that idea up with them close to 5 years ago and twice since then and still get the same answer.

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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by mj30wilson » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:53 pm

OK. How about the scopes that have a cover that closes when you twist it.
And opens when you twist.

That way you can dial the correct caliber you are shooting.
These would be located between the k baffles only to decrease gas blow by.
At anytime you would quickly be able to dial the largest caliber and shoot it.
Then a couple twist and you are shooting sub caliber.

Legal?
I'm a reasonable guy most of the time but i must insist factory rifles now come with 1/8 m.o.a guarantee to support my fly wing shooting pastime.

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Re: Interchangeable caliber silencer

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:59 pm

mj30wilson wrote:OK. How about the scopes that have a cover that closes when you twist it.
And opens when you twist.

That way you can dial the correct caliber you are shooting.
These would be located between the k baffles only to decrease gas blow by.
At anytime you would quickly be able to dial the largest caliber and shoot it.
Then a couple twist and you are shooting sub caliber.

Legal?
No because by changing the aperture you are changing the caliber, doesn't matter than it can be changed back, the problem is that you are changing the caliber.

This is no different than a rotating core.

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