Suppressors as SHTF gear?

[Davo5o]

Subsonic .308 is as quiet as any subsonic 22. I'm not sure of the max effective range with a sub .308 however?? Not defending G&R, just thought I'd point that out.

[TROOPER]

Well, in a SHTF I like my Beretta CX4 Storm in 9mm. Its already got the Evo-9 on it and its plenty accurate and power to spare. My opinion of the 4 most commong calibers in the US are, 12 gauge, .22 LR, 9mm, and .223 (in no particular order). Others are very common, .45s and .40s, .38s and .357 magnums - but not as plentiful as the big four.

For best suppression the round must be subonic - which means that if you want to hit harder you have to get heavier. What exactly is the output difference between a sub-sonic 147 gr 9mm and a subsonic .308? Probably not a huge gap, right? And availability of 147 9mm is absurdly easy - even Wal-Mart sells it. When people refer to a SHTF and low-priced ammunition, what they're really referring to is how easy it is to get the bullets and not how much they'll be saving when they go to buy it. The .308 subsonic is plenty good, but its availability and abundance are seriously lacking in a SHTF. Of course if you're sitting on a 10K stockpile of subsonic .308, then its availability and abundance is higher for you than .22 LR is for me - so that doesn't really translate into a viable argument against the round.

Some of the individual cartridge's strengths and weaknesses will depend on the end user. Someone who is competent with a .22 LR won't suffer the same confidence and unfamiliary as Joe-Blow picking up a 10/22 for the first time in a zombie apocolypse scenario. Plus, which gun a person uses the most will sort of default to their baby. For me, the length of my CX4 Storm even with suppressor, is still shorter than my Savage 93 (.17 HMR) with 21 inch barrel.

There are differences in the Ballistic Co-Efficient between a .22LR, a 9mm 147, and a sub-sonic .308 - but since they're all approximately the same velocity, then the trajectories aren't significantly different. Plus, I vote the 9mm rifle since the round itself is readily available, easily subsonic, and pistol friendly to boot.

[Davo5o]

Trooper what kind of groups you pull off with that CX4?? 25,50, and 100?? Can you get 30rd mags anywhere?? I've been waiting for you to get your can, how long have you had it for??

[Rgray]

Well, in a SHTF I like my Beretta CX4 Storm in 9mm. Its already got the Evo-9 on it and its plenty accurate and power to spare. My opinion of the 4 most commong calibers in the US are, 12 gauge, .22 LR, 9mm, and .223 (in no particular order). Others are very common, .45s and .40s, .38s and .357 magnums - but not as plentiful as the big four.

For best suppression the round must be subonic - which means that if you want to hit harder you have to get heavier. What exactly is the output difference between a sub-sonic 147 gr 9mm and a subsonic .308? Probably not a huge gap, right? And availability of 147 9mm is absurdly easy - even Wal-Mart sells it. When people refer to a SHTF and low-priced ammunition, what they're really referring to is how easy it is to get the bullets and not how much they'll be saving when they go to buy it. The .308 subsonic is plenty good, but its availability and abundance are seriously lacking in a SHTF. Of course if you're sitting on a 10K stockpile of subsonic .308, then its availability and abundance is higher for you than .22 LR is for me - so that doesn't really translate into a viable argument against the round.

Some of the individual cartridge's strengths and weaknesses will depend on the end user. Someone who is competent with a .22 LR won't suffer the same confidence and unfamiliary as Joe-Blow picking up a 10/22 for the first time in a zombie apocolypse scenario. Plus, which gun a person uses the most will sort of default to their baby. For me, the length of my CX4 Storm even with suppressor, is still shorter than my Savage 93 (.17 HMR) with 21 inch barrel.

There are differences in the Ballistic Co-Efficient between a .22LR, a 9mm 147, and a sub-sonic .308 - but since they're all approximately the same velocity, then the trajectories aren't significantly different. Plus, I vote the 9mm rifle since the round itself is readily available, easily subsonic, and pistol friendly to boot.

I always wanted a CX4 and a Beretta together for the reasons stated above. I ended up with a USP 45 and a UMP for some of the same reasons. Hard hitter and eat the same ammo and short. I keep a backpack full of 45 ACP and .22 LR. Easy one-stop-shopping

[TROOPER]

Trooper what kind of groups you pull off with that CX4?? 25,50, and 100?? Can you get 30rd mags anywhere?? I've been waiting for you to get your can, how long have you had it for??

My groupings suck. However, I know this is me and not the gun since my friend put two shots into a bullseye at 50 yards (out of 15 attempted). The groupings for him weren't really representative of the gun since we were using a red-dot reflex, and we were also sighting it in. I'd use binoculars and tell him "two high, three to the right". He'd correct appropriately, so I know the gun is shooting where he's basically pointing.

The Evo-9 makes it pretty, I'll try to get a picture of that somewhere in the future.

[Davo5o]

Thanks. About what I thought. I'd like to see a picture though.

[TROOPER]

It makes kind of an odd *thdook* when you shoot it suppressed. Its a total pussycat.

Plus - its an opportunity to say, "pussycat".

[Blaubart]

I see very little tactical advantage to a suppressed .22lr that a pellet rifle doesn't offer.

Both have their merits of course. The big difference to me is that a .177 pellet weighs 7.5 grains and a .22 bullet weighs about 30 grains. Get them both up to 1100 fps and which one do you think is going to arrive at the target with more energy?

(.22 caliber pellets weigh in around 15 grains, so they are also much lighter than .22 bullets)

My vote (FWIW) is that yes, supressed .22's have a place in a SHTF scenario.

[Rastus]

Absolutely something I'd want.

Ruger used to make an M77 bolt in .44 Remington Mag. No one bought them....then with the surplus Mr. Higgins bought a pile of them on the cheap. Converted them to integral suppressed 44 rem mags. Handloaded ss rounds moving just under the speed of sound are...the same speed as other ss rounds....just a lot heavier. Think 300 grain +...one guy I know here in Tulsa makes his own 400 grain rounds.

Something to think about for self-defense.

A supressed 450 Bushmaster might be a better choice...if I had one.

[Artful]

Absolutely something I'd want. ...

A supressed 450 Bushmaster might be a better choice...if I had one.

Problem with the 450 Bushmaster is .452 bullet size (can't use really heavy bullets) and the twist rate on the barrel - If they had made it a faster twist and .458 so you could load up to 550 or 600 grain sub-sonic, I'd have bought one.

[Rastus]

Absolutely something I'd want. ...

A supressed 450 Bushmaster might be a better choice...if I had one.

Problem with the 450 Bushmaster is .452 bullet size (can't use really heavy bullets) and the twist rate on the barrel - If they had made it a faster twist and .458 so you could load up to 550 or 600 grain sub-sonic, I'd have bought one.

Thanks for the info....had my eye on one. Now it can wait.

[Dave3220]

Your best bet for SHTF are conibear traps. 110s for squirrels and rabbits 220s for raccoons, small dogs large cats, and a couple 280s or 330s for large dogs

http://www.nwtrappers.com/catalog/traps/vt/vtc.asp

Peoples pets will be an excellent food source in cities if the SHTF. Out in the country nail those raccoons in the 220s, and snare deer in steel cable snares with locks. Deer snares can be made dirt cheap. You could set up hundreds of them and nail all kinds of deer.

Gill nets are also awesome if you have a lake near by. I�ve never been able to get fish traps to woke correctly. There�s a lot of trial and error with the funnel size that I don�t have time for.

Also, if you have a predetermined location that you will leave to consider getting into bee keeping. You can use the honey for yourself, as well as it�s a universal bait for trapping.

Get a good suppressed center fire rifle to defend your life. And a small accurate suppressed rim fire pistol or rifle to pop a snared deer in the head with. Don�t think you just going to head for the woods and live off the land with a .22 pistol and a good knife.

Dan

I agree with what Dan says above.... (www.buckshotscamp.com can be another source for snares, connibear traps, lure/bait, & info...)

My personal "want list" is an ACCURATE integrally suppressed 10-22,
and possibly likewise on a CZ-527 in short Russ. or maybe one of my .357MAX NEF singleshots with a cast 200 to 250 gr. WFN or ogival wad-cutter bullet.

I live in what is considered a fairly remote part of inland Wash. state, 13 miles out of a small town of 1,000 pop. and more than an hours drive from what woudl even be cosnidereda ''small town''.

There are too many "urbies" moving into McMansions, even here, and if I want to continue to hunt/varmint shoot, I've got to be more quiet. (They call and whine ot the SHeriff's office about EVERYTHING....)

In a "teo-whatever" scenario, I will want to not make much noise as a center-fire rifle shot can literally be heard miles away.
People rarely complain to "uniformed authority figures" about noises they do NOT hear.

Along Dan's thinking, I do not consider myself much of a "hunter"...
I eat some wild meat every so often because I usually have a rifle or small bore shotgun or Paradox-bored .410 pistol with me, and if I have an opportunity, I can still shoot fairly well despite cataracts coming on.
Just moving around checking livestock, traps/snares, you get opportunities for varmints that are after your stock, or maybe to knock the head off a grouse or something.

You burn up more calories "hunting" than you are going to get with your rifle in the long run, unless you know a good deer/squirrel woods where you can still hunt, or just wait till the critters come to a couple cups of corn or salt block.
If you are old and/or dinged-up and cannot get around well, "I'll just wrest what meat I need from Mother Nature when I get hungry!" definately won't cut it!
Around here in bad times there were almost NO deer seen for years at a time.
Subsistance hunting was "good" when you got a fat raccoon down by the creek or after your chickens.
Keep in mind that besides ''hunting competition'' from other hungry folks, you are going to have feral dogs, coyotes, cougars, blackbear, and now wolves to deal with. (Everything but the blackbear can be handled well at close range with the suppressed .22 rifle....)

Dave3220

[Tugnut]

The only thing that would make me feel better, would be for you to purchase a .22lr silencer, attach it to a pistol, and put it in your mouth and pull the trigger.

That would end all of our misery.

+1

[Artful]

Absolutely something I'd want. ...

A supressed 450 Bushmaster might be a better choice...if I had one.

Problem with the 450 Bushmaster is .452 bullet size (can't use really heavy bullets) and the twist rate on the barrel - If they had made it a faster twist and .458 so you could load up to 550 or 600 grain sub-sonic, I'd have bought one.

Thanks for the info....had my eye on one. Now it can wait.

New SAR has review - factory 250 getting 1.5 inch or under 5 shot groups. I wonder what would happen if you had a fast twist .458 barrel chambered in 450 bushmaster with tall lands to handle .452 bullets (lots of gas cutting I know). This could have been such a cool factory suppressed heavy hitter.

[niceshotman]

I'd make as much noise as you can if the SHTF.

[Rastus]

Problem with the 450 Bushmaster is .452 bullet size (can't use really heavy bullets) and the twist rate on the barrel - If they had made it a faster twist and .458 so you could load up to 550 or 600 grain sub-sonic, I'd have bought one.

Thanks for the info....had my eye on one. Now it can wait.

New SAR has review - factory 250 getting 1.5 inch or under 5 shot groups. I wonder what would happen if you had a fast twist .458 barrel chambered in 450 bushmaster with tall lands to handle .452 bullets (lots of gas cutting I know). This could have been such a cool factory suppressed heavy hitter.

I'll keep my eye on it. Bought an integrally supressed Ruger M-77 by TAG (Higgins) yesterday in 44 Rem mag.....but I'd really rather have an AR platorm even if it is a bit noisier.

[Blaubart]

The reason is...if the SHTF, nobody is going to care how much noise you make.

Much depends on if the person that hears your shots would be considered "predator" or "prey", if they're armed or not, if you're on their land or shooting their game, or their family, etc.

I can think of tons of reasons that you might want to keep your noise to a minimum. There could also be times that you'd want to make some noise too, I'll give you that much for sure.

[Crosshair]

I think a SHTF situation, by nature, would NOT need any kind of can.

The reason is...if the SHTF, nobody is going to care how much noise you make.

If you are hunting small animals, they will certainly will care that you are making allot of noise.

You might be armed well enough to take on a band of 4-5 thugs that hear you and try to take you on, but why bother if you can keep a low profile and avoid them altogether.

[RWBlue]

I think suppressors would be good for post SHTF. Depending on the SHTF, it could be the item to hunt quietly/avoid conflict, or to snipe off predators, or to save your hearing.

Subsonic .308 is as quiet as any subsonic 22. I'm not sure of the max effective range with a sub .308 however?? Not defending G&R, just thought I'd point that out.

I disagree. I am not using sound equipment to test, I am using my ears.
SWR 22lr suppressor on multiple pistols and rifles.
Gemtech HVT on 300-221 AR.

The 22lr with SWR is MUCH quieter than the subsonic 308.

I think the 308 will be effective deer killer out to 125 yards. Beyond that, there is just too much drop.

[Dave3220]

Bows are only suited for people who shoot them OFTEN and who are in good physical condition. (I can't come to full-draw even with a girly bow now
Get hurt or sick, and you might as well use your stick and arrows to kindle a fire

Airguns are complex and HEAVY. They can be pretty noisy.
A .22 kills much better than a .177 in my experience, and a .25 Theoben may be powerful, but ammo is hard to find trajectory is more rainbow-like than .22.

For many years I have loaded .315 roundballs in 30-30 and 32-20, and .360 rb's in .357 and .357MAX carbines over a .22LR caseful of Red Dot for quiet short-range smallgame loads.
I'me one of those "dimwits" G&R mentioned because I have, after wanting a "legal" one for 50 years, ordered a Comanche from SRT.
It will go on a heavy barreled 10-22 as well as on .22WMR that will sound like a snapped branch about the dia of a broom handle.

Even tho I live 13 miles out of a very small town, there are more "urbies" building McMansions all the time, even out here.
If I want to keep hunting and shooting, I need to make less noise...
Also, few people call the "sherf" to bug him about what they DON't hear. (Even a "dimwit" can figure this out, given enough time

As to lethality, friends that were in various outfits from Border Patrol, to LEO, to sub-contracting for the state dept. (CIA, in other words...) have personally witnessed more than a few people dropped very satisfactorily w/.22LR....Also, a few failures to "stop" with the much-vaunted .45acp.

As the rural gentleman noted, (& whose post I greatly appreciate!) some LARGE domestic stock is put down with nothing but a .22.
A well-placed .22 will take smallgame just fine. (Groudn squirrels to 150+ yds. by LRF w/ Win. Power-Point h.p.'s)
One of the more enlightening experiences I had many years ago with an AR-15 w/Rhino piston conversion was trying to headshoot grouse off treelimbs. (aim at their heads and you either hit em' in the low brisket or cut their legs off....Great...Real "sporting" and trebly dandy in the teo-whatever scenario......)

Around these parts, if the wind is right, you can hear a center-fire rifle discharged 5 miles away.
I do not want the attention this will bring, either now, or after the teo-whatever.
Any silenced rifle woud be a great asset.
My .22 LR & WMR are going to get alot fo use, and it takes ME alot of getting used to a particular weapon before the "magic" starts to happen.
I don't hardly handload at all any more....I DO shoot .22 rimfires, and I can keep 3/4 of my shots in a tea saucer @ 200 yds. on a good day.
I can hit a propane bottle @ 330 yds. about the same ratio with my Clark barreled 10-22.
I can double or triple-tap a propane bottle or hanging skillet at 125 yds.
I can headshoot digger squirrels @ 75 yds., get one shot kills @ 125 to 135 yds., and get "hits" and eventual kills wiht repeat shots out to 150 yds. w/.22LR.
Headshooting a squirrel @ over 50 yds. can not be any more difficult than putting a little 40 gr. pill thru an eye socket and into a cranial vault at the same range.
Quite a few people around here subsistance hunt deer with .22LR or WMR
(And if an old, gimpy fat guy with a cataract in his shooting eye can do this, so can ALOT of other people.)
I carry a fixed-blade DE knife and a pistol all the time, but I am infinitely more confidant fo my ability to whack something that might do me harm with ANY rifle, incl. .22LR.
Keep in mind that one of the largest grizzlies ever taken in the lower 48 states was done by a .22 singleshot in the hands of a small injun woman running her trapline. (Try THAT with a .177 pellet gun, G&R...Be my guest!
I'me not saying that .22 is a bear caliber, or even a "deer" caliber...Jsut that it has "done" for an awful lot of critters and men over the years, so don't sell it short.

I can't walk very far anymore, and I'me selling my ponies, but you can put together a Garand ammo belt with each of the ten pockets filled with a 50 rd. box of LR or WMR, a fanny pack and suspenders/"H-Harness" and a couple canteens, that would take someone who was fit a LONG ways and several years.....
Try carrying 500 rds. of center-fire ammo sometime......even if you ARE young & fit.

"We pays our money and we takes our chances...."
I've sold most of my center-fire rifles, especially .308, -06', and .375 H&H, and am putting my faith in my CZ527 boltaction in 7.62x39mm, (possibly to be suppressed at some tiem when I can afford it), and .22 rimfires.

A much more savvy and tougher tho a bit older man than myself has made almost identical choices, so at least us "dimwits" are in good company!

Dave3220

[Davo5o]

I disagree. I am not using sound equipment to test, I am using my ears.
SWR 22lr suppressor on multiple pistols and rifles.
Gemtech HVT on 300-221 AR.

The 22lr with SWR is MUCH quieter than the subsonic 308.

I think the 308 will be effective deer killer out to 125 yards. Beyond that, there is just too much drop.

Well there's your problem. Your comparing one of the best 22lr suppressors to one of the worst .308 cans.

[Dweezil]

Dave3220 said:
I've sold most of my center-fire rifles, especially .308, -06', and .375 H&H, and am putting my faith in my CZ527 boltaction in 7.62x39mm, (possibly to be suppressed at some tiem when I can afford it), and .22 rimfires.][/color]
Umm. Dave, how is that CZ working for you? I'm thinking of getting one. Will it work with milsurp ammo like Wolf with the hard primers?

[Dave3220]

[quote="Dweezil"]Dave3220 said:
I've sold most of my center-fire rifles, especially .308, -06', and .375 H&H, and am putting my faith in my CZ527 boltaction in 7.62x39mm, (possibly to be suppressed at some tiem when I can afford it), and .22 rimfires.][/color]
Umm. Dave, how is that CZ working for you? I'm thinking of getting one. Will it work with milsurp ammo like Wolf with the hard primers?[/

Dweezil,
I cannot recall a mis-fire yet, and all I have shot has been WOLF steel case stuff. Mebbe some other com-bloc stuff as well. Say 500 rds. total so far....
You DO notice the difference form cart. to cart. as you chamber them...Some are a bit "snug".
Accurascy seems to be aprox. 1 MOA @ 100 yds when my mojo is working. No worse than 1 1/2MOA to 2 moa at the same distance "pit run". (This is with "ball" fmj , or h.p. loaded on the same machines.Haven't fired a U.S.-made rd. yet...)
It is a WAY better rifle than my Sastava/Rem. in same caliber that is a push-feed abomination, as well as feeding better.
Quite sturdy and a more reliable gun than the lever rifles I have used most of my life.

You can do a litlte modification to the gussets from trigger guard to mag housing to speed up mag. changes, trigger is darn good, and I even liek the "set" trigger feature.
You DO have to make you own scope base thos, sicne the action is so short you cannot expect to mount a scope across the receiver ring & rear action bridge.

I like it, trust it, and would buy one again.

Best!
Dave

[FNCFAN]

I tired to make this my signature, but it was too long:
----
Never suppress a .22lr, they have little use for anything other than training young children to knock over soft drink cans. Going through the NFA hassle and expense for something with virtually no tactical value is - in my opinion - absurd. A .177 caliber pellet rifle is very quiet, and is just as well suited for small game, yet does not require a 4473, much less a form 4.

I once shot my friend's .177 RWS in his backyard and thought, s--t, that was as loud as a regular .22 pistol! I just knew the cops would come. My suppressed Ruger .22 in my backyard sounds more like a single cock Daisy BB gun. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

[FNCFAN]

If G&R, an obvious Glock fan, as am I, were to try a Glock with an Advantage Arms kit and a good suppressor like the Warlock on it, he'd readily change his mind, if he has one. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but hasn't the .22 killed more people in history than any other caliber, except maybe the 7.62x39?......and didn't the CIA use suppressed .22s to dispatch many a shithead in Vietnam+? The abundance of .22 ammo alone is a given. Even the Colibri ammo is pretty quiet up close in a non-suppressed gun. My friend uses them for target practice in the .22 AA non-suppressed Glock 26 in his hallway, in town. Hell, the .177 pellet guns I'd want would just about cover the cost of a suppressor PLUS a MKII to put it on! In your defense G&R, I like Fenders too. ROCK ON.