What we should do about the riots

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Fallschirmjaager
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What we should do about the riots

Post by Fallschirmjaager » Sun May 31, 2020 9:16 am

It's been a long time since I visited this forum. Life got in the way and stuff, just fell by the wayside. Not sure if I still have any friends here or not, but I wanted to pop by and see what people were saying about the riots. Looks like a fair bit of differing opinions, which is to be expected, but one idea has been notably absent. I hope you'll all welcome me back by hearing me out about this, because I believe this is an opportunity to make a statement that could define our future as gun lovers. It's gonna take some serious reevaluation of some pretty closely held beliefs for some of you, but I think if you hear me out you'll see where I'm coming from.

The anti-gun, pro-socialist regressive left has co-opted this movement as their own, but that doesn't make any sense. It should be our movement. It should be our protest, and here's why:

I have spent my entire adult life involved with law enforcement in some form or another. I have trained cops and armed security guards, I've been an Army MP, an armed guard, and at my current job (which will remain nameless because I don't want any possibility of insinuation that I speak for them) I wear a badge, carry a gun, have federal arrest authority and protect government assets. I've worked with folks from scores of different departments across the country, federal state and local. I have tons of friends who are cops, people I love and respect, so when I say this I want you all to understand that I don't hate cops, I don't advocate violence against anyone who doesn't deserve it and I genuinely believe that many people who chose careers in law enforcement do so because they are truly good people who want to make a difference.

That said, every last person on this forum should be acutely aware that the police are the tool the state will try to use to enforce unjust laws. Some cops refuse, but most don't have a choice. That doesn't make them bad people, it makes our system bad and it makes our "leadership" bad. There are unfortunately countless examples of these unjust laws spiraling out of control to the point where someone gets killed.

Understand first and foremost that I am NOT advocating what I'm about to say, it is simply something that needs to be considered.

The catalyst to this violence was a police officer killing an unarmed civilian. The powder keg under which the catalyst was set off was multiple instances of police officers killing unarmed civilians. The people protesting, looting, rioting, they are angry because of police officers killing unarmed civilians.

Some people who support the protests in a general sense are saying that the protesters have targeted the wrong buildings; that burning down the 3rd precinct headquarters in Minneapolis was a much more targeted and appropriate response than burning down an auto parts store. The building in which the 3rd precinct was headquartered however did not kill anyone. If the sole issue with the protests is the amount of collateral damage, then you're effectively saying the focus shouldn't be the police headquarters building anymore than it should be Target or Auto Zone, you're saying it should be police officers. That's a dangerous argument to make.

If you want the protesters to keep a laser-focus on the issue at hand and refrain from anything that isn't directly pertinent, that means targeting attacking police officers as individuals.

Again, understand that I am NOT advocating this. My point is that by lashing out at whatever is around them, they are able to show their rage and anger and fear and emotion WITHOUT killing police officers, and I believe that to be a net positive. If we want to keep it that way, then perhaps instead of condemning them for their actions we should recognize that they are destroying inanimate objects instead of human lives and use the opportunity to listen to what they have to say. They're giving us a chance to make a change before the escalation of force goes any further. We should not look that gift horse in the mouth.

There is a HUGE caveat to that, and it's one I think we all understand pretty well by now.

Agitators.

Any politically motivated riot will always consist of a small group of agitators, a much larger but still relatively small group of true believers, and an unfortunate majority of opportunists. That happens every time, and it can't be used to discredit the true believers.

People are far too willing to forget about the spirit of the protests because they see everyone involved as being the same. People are unruly and opportunistic, and this s--t happens after football games all the time. The very fact that we point out how some looters and agitators are there just to loot and agitate shows that we understand there is a difference, we're just choosing to ignore that difference because of the pressure of public opinion.

So you don't like the lack of direction? You don't like the looting and opportunism? Then this is where we come in.

The anti-gun, pro-socialist regressive left has co-opted this movement as their own, but that doesn't make any sense. We own guns because we value life. We train with our guns because we want to defend life. We are constantly accused of being racist, but when we see minorities and people of color joining us in our love of firearms we welcome them, when we see pictures of Korean immigrants using rifles to defend their business we feel pride in how American those images are.

We should be there WITH the protesters. We should be showing them that an armed populace is more likely to be heard and less likely to be hurt. We should be showing them that the more firepower you have, the less you need to use. We should be showing them that a show of force is sufficient to open a dialog, that burning businesses is the most low-fi and least productive version of civil disturbance and that we are willing to stand beside them and show them what we all know to be true; that we are free men because we are armed.

When armed protesters stormed the capital building in Michigan, the police didn't gas them, they opened a dialog. Race baiters in the MSM and the Twittersphere claimed the difference was the color of their skin, blamed white privilege, but we know it was ARMED privilege that made the difference. This is our opportunity to show the left that they're wrong about us, to show the disenfranchised that they are our brothers and sisters, to show the protestors, the police, every American that we value their lives and their freedom enough to defend it.

This is our opportunity to show the establishment that we will not stand for their unjust laws, for using our own police against us, for dividing us and making us hate one another.

If we bring our guns out, not to shoot looters, not to kill cops, but as a show of force in the defense of liberty, if we behave as strong, free, dignified men, gently and empathetically but with terrible power held in check by our own calm, the conversation will be FORCED to shift to something more productive.

Let's stop bickering and equivocating. Let's start putting our best foot forward.
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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by a_canadian » Sun May 31, 2020 1:43 pm

A well thought out statement, and if it could work that would be wonderful. Unfortunately it seems unlikely to happen. That's because in general we know that the most likely outcome resulting from anything but an overwhelming number of people showing up at the same time would be violence of some kind by police against those with firearms. Whether that take the form of mere arrest and confiscation, or escalate to the point of a gun battle which the civilians would almost certainly lose, we understand that police are far too likely to escalate, to make mistakes. The people protesting the lockdown while armed were not gassed or fired upon because they were protesting against a government edict, there was no background of destruction, rioting, theft, nor personal violence. Joining an almost week-long series of riots during which people have been violently assaulted and even killed would provide police with what the public might easily perceive as a justifiable excuse to open fire. It's not hard to imagine government escalating in the face of such a perceived threat by bringing in the military to crush what could be sold to the media as insurrection.

Gun owners have a dog in this fight - their continued legal right to own firearms. They are unlikely to be willing to sacrifice that by creating opportunities for lawmakers to label them as part and parcel of a violent mob, however we might try to explain our participation. Joining the mob in such a way as to avoid linking responsible citizens with looting rioters seems unlikely in the extreme. And I see the primary obstacle as not the police themselves, but the legitimate protesters, who want nothing to do with our kind. Black men with guns have appeared prominently in one event, lined up to defend their businesses. They stood in opposition to chaos. They did not join the protest. Do you see the state, the mainstream media, anyone with a respectable voice backing up those men for what they did? Congratulating them? Even noting that what they did had any value? No, instead all eyes focus on an angry white shop owner with a sword, attacking black men... Entirely too predictable. If anyone were to have a remote chance of accomplishing what you suggest it would be black men, and women, with guns, at least as a catalyst. That's the only possibility I see there. But that's not going to happen. Why would armed black men with honest intent join with white men who smash windows, both internal and state actor agitators, and opportunists, and all those who go on to loot and burn out of anger or whatever motive?

I'd love to see positive change come out of all this. I don't think people are ready for that. The actions of these rioters is tailor made to provide the government and police with excuses for curtailment of rights and freedoms. They don't turn that down. Government loves more control. They're addicted to it. And genuine racists and government authoritarian types are being given the gift of thousands of hours of streaming video which scares the hell out of the general public. It's in their interests to watch cities burn. The more destructive the mobs, the easier their sales job in the aftermath as they move to enact gun bans and whatever other nonsense they can sell in the name of protecting the public. Look at Canada's recent gun ban for an example. And all it took to sell it here was one denturist murdering 22 people and a bunch of Somali and other immigrants having gun battles in one city over drug territory. Imagine what laws they'll be able to change after a dozen cities are smoking rubble?

In the face of all that, who will step into the fray with an AR across his chest and face down lines of police and national guardsmen? Who will risk losing their freedom or even their life to make a political statement, in this age of hinge watching Netflix and chronic inaction? I don't see much of a revolution happening. Our protests against the gun ban have been so tiny as to be a momentary blip on the radar, a fringe element easily ignored without comment by government. Why? Because people are scared of the consequences. We're hoping for a miracle. Government holds all the power.

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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by 0101silent » Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:37 am

There were three separate events that need handled in different ways. The Protests, the Riots, and the Looting.

The Protestors had two grievances. (1) Police officers murdering George Floyd and (2) The Government not punishing the officers for the murder. There is a legitimate grievance when the government zealously enforces parking, zoning, hunting, fishing, licensing hair stylists, social distancing, NFA taxes, ensuring grass is cut, emissions, etc... but doesn't punish four cold blooded murderers and their accomplices. Redress the grievances and the protest is over.

What's needed to stop the Riots is the capture of the Agent Provocatuers and whoever delivered pallets of bricks to the riots, interview them at Gitmo, and destroy the entire organization. The other rioters need prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. It shouldn't be hard to figure out who they are. Many live streamed their own crimes. The Commander of the Abandoned Police Station and the Police Chief need to be fired and forced to pay restitution. The Officers that parked and abandoned police cars should be fired and ordered to pay restitution. Everyone in the fire department that didn't respond to the fires should be fired and ordered to pay restitution for all their wasted training, pay, and wasted equipment.

The Looters should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. It shouldn't be hard with facial recognition and phone data.

The Murder, Riots, and Looting should increase support for the second amendment. The Police and State Patrol in Minneapolis couldn't stop the riots and looting. It's true that the Police left their firearms in the car, but so did the rioters. The Governor is calling in 2,500 - 10,000 troops to quell the riots.

In Columbus, OH while the Police and Highway Patrol were unsuccessfully attempting secure the State House and control the rioting within one square mile they couldn't respond to other police calls in the city. There were other serious criminal complaints that that were disregarded during the riot. The National Guard was called in. Once again the Police didn't use guns, but neither did the rioters.

The second amendment is very important because even a large Police department can't handle a big event and daily law enforcement at the same time. Imagine if there was Nationwide unrest. It took all 50 National Guards, the US Military, and several other nations how many years to restore order to Iraq? People need their second amendment to protect themselves when the Police can't.

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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by 0101silent » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:26 am

Disregard what I wrote earlier. These are better solutions. https://twitter.com/tkerssen/status/1266921821653385225 Our chickens coming home to roost.
https://twitter.com/the7goonies/status/ ... 9160590336 As I wrote in other threads. Police Service one reserved for the inner city will soon be available for all. No one is exempt.

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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by Fallschirmjaager » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:08 pm

0101silent wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:26 am
Disregard what I wrote earlier. These are better solutions. https://twitter.com/tkerssen/status/1266921821653385225 Our chickens coming home to roost.
https://twitter.com/the7goonies/status/ ... 9160590336 As I wrote in other threads. Police Service one reserved for the inner city will soon be available for all. No one is exempt.
I don't understand, are you saying this is okay?
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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by 0101silent » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:51 am

Fallschirmjaager wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:08 pm
I don't understand, are you saying this is okay?
A standard for order, justice, public service, human and civil rights has clearly been set. I personally don't think this is ok, but who am I to disagree?

If I understood your post correctly you respect and are friends with these officers and military that behave this way. You trained these officers to behave this way. You are an officer yourself.

If I understood correctly you said that some officers don't have a choice? Are their families being held hostage by the bad leadership? Has mind control been perfected? Are officers being mind controlled? You'll have to explain why officers have no choice.

You suggest that peaceful protesters(I'm separating them from rioters and looters) bring firearms as a show of force. Like a picket sign. If thousands of armed protestors descend on the town square what happens next? What is the logical conclusion to this?

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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by ccw1911 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:13 am

What we think is dictated by what we believe, if you believe what happened in Minneapolis is the normal way police treat black suspects all the time everywhere then I guess riots are called for. If you believe this terrible incident is the action of a single cop that the media and other powerful interests are blowing up to harm the USA then the riots are absolutely wrong. Unfortunately there seem to be a lot of Americans that are unable to think for themselves and are afraid to have an opinion other than what's promoted by the mass media, the results are what we see on the streets of large cities right now.

I too have worked closely with LE and Military, in my experience this is an aberration and not even close to what the public, black or any other color, experience when interfacing with LE. We are living in a time when extremely rare incidents are blown completely out of proportion for political gain with absolutely no regard for the truth or the harm perpetuating these lies is doing to our society. Just as on example look at the "hands up" dialog, it was proven a lie but is still repeated on the street, by organizations, and by some in power.

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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by poikilotrm » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:28 am

ccw1911 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:13 am
What we think is dictated by what we believe, if you believe what happened in Minneapolis is the normal way police treat black suspects all the time everywhere then I guess riots are called for.
I don't believe that this is the way that black suspects are treated, I KNOW this is the way a significant number of suspects of all races are treated. I know this from personal experience as a cop, and personal experience as a victim of criminals with badges.

Crooked cops are covered by the "good" cops. If you observe a felony, and you are a cop, and you don't report it, then that is misprison of a felony, and it is a felony, so all those "good" cops are scumbags, too.
I too have worked closely with LE and Military, in my experience this is an aberration and not even close to what the public, black or any other color, experience when interfacing with LE.
I'd like to know the extent of your work, because you did not see what I regularly saw. I have a lot of stories. Here is a minor, but significant one: When I was stationed at Ft. Stewart, GA, in the 1980s, the MPs used to like to drive nice and slow down the sidewalk and hit pedestrians with their cruiser, then yell "Get off the sidewalk!". That stopped after I dragged a PFC out and beat his ass. The only reason I didn't get UCMJ was the multitude of people who had been struck as well.

If bad cops are so rare, why do I run into so many?
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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by a_canadian » Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:31 pm

It seems from the latest information I've been able to glean that George Floyd had recently tested positive for COVID-19, had a quantity of fentanyl in his body, had dropped a small ziploc bag full of white powder or pills as he was cuffed and squatted against a wall during the initial arrest, and had been a habitual hard drug user for years both before and after his several years of incarceration for a violent armed assault on a pregnant woman during a home invasion in Texas in 2007. His heart was significantly jeopardized owing to his drug addiction. Fentanyl itself increases risk of heart failure significantly, besides the obvious depressing effect on respiration which is the cardinal OD symptom often leading to death. Incidentally, he was an eager promoter of hip-hop videos focused on violent drug gang related themes, proud of the fact even.

None of that gives permission for a cop to kneel on his neck for more than 8 minutes. But considering that he and the cops involved were known to each other, had a history, and that he was known to be a violent offender by these officers, it's not all that surprising that they would have little regard for his request to breathe... Seems from what I've learned over the past two days that the new charges should be rolled back to manslaughter at worst. Perhaps negligent homicide, similar to a drunk driving offense in severity. No question this is bad behaviour. But they're not murdering a saint of the black community, a church going upstanding family man as has been portrayed.

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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by poikilotrm » Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:04 am

a_canadian wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:31 pm
It seems from the latest information I've been able to glean that George Floyd had recently tested positive for COVID-19, had a quantity of fentanyl in his body, had dropped a small ziploc bag full of white powder or pills as he was cuffed and squatted against a wall during the initial arrest, and had been a habitual hard drug user for years both before and after his several years of incarceration for a violent armed assault on a pregnant woman during a home invasion in Texas in 2007. His heart was significantly jeopardized owing to his drug addiction. Fentanyl itself increases risk of heart failure significantly, besides the obvious depressing effect on respiration which is the cardinal OD symptom often leading to death. Incidentally, he was an eager promoter of hip-hop videos focused on violent drug gang related themes, proud of the fact even.

None of that gives permission for a cop to kneel on his neck for more than 8 minutes. But considering that he and the cops involved were known to each other, had a history, and that he was known to be a violent offender by these officers, it's not all that surprising that they would have little regard for his request to breathe... Seems from what I've learned over the past two days that the new charges should be rolled back to manslaughter at worst. Perhaps negligent homicide, similar to a drunk driving offense in severity. No question this is bad behaviour. But they're not murdering a saint of the black community, a church going upstanding family man as has been portrayed.
If you're going to go into that, how about acknowledging the fact that Chauvin knew him, and hated him? That means it would be an easy sell to the jury if 1st degree murder charges were brought to trial.
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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by a_canadian » Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:27 am

Sure. They'll probably go that way with it if they can find a couple of witnesses to confirm Chauvin's animosity. I don't care much at this point. It's all become such a mess, so many hurt and dead as a result of the rioting, so many businesses destroyed. What a waste.

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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by 0101silent » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:27 pm

a_canadian wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:31 pm
It seems from the latest information I've been able to glean that George Floyd had recently tested positive for COVID-19, had a quantity of fentanyl in his body, had dropped a small ziploc bag full of white powder or pills as he was cuffed and squatted against a wall during the initial arrest, and had been a habitual hard drug user for years both before and after his several years of incarceration for a violent armed assault on a pregnant woman during a home invasion in Texas in 2007. His heart was significantly jeopardized owing to his drug addiction. Fentanyl itself increases risk of heart failure significantly, besides the obvious depressing effect on respiration which is the cardinal OD symptom often leading to death. Incidentally, he was an eager promoter of hip-hop videos focused on violent drug gang related themes, proud of the fact even.

None of that gives permission for a cop to kneel on his neck for more than 8 minutes. But considering that he and the cops involved were known to each other, had a history, and that he was known to be a violent offender by these officers, it's not all that surprising that they would have little regard for his request to breathe... Seems from what I've learned over the past two days that the new charges should be rolled back to manslaughter at worst. Perhaps negligent homicide, similar to a drunk driving offense in severity. No question this is bad behaviour. But they're not murdering a saint of the black community, a church going upstanding family man as has been portrayed.
a_canadian, are you under duress? https://www.reddit.com/r/Bad_Cop_No_Don ... e_stopped/ Have you received a similar threat?

If George Floyd's autopsy is to be believed, then he was the strongest and healthiest 46 year old long term Fentanyl, Meth user, and Covid patient in existence.

It's also incredible that he retained long term employment in a position of trust in a cash business. Imagine George Floyd's job application. Violent Felon, current hard drug user, current counterfeiter... ok you would be a good fit on our security team with Officer Chauvin.

If you believe that a negligent homicide charge fits the crime, would you opposed to a charge of "abuse of a corpse" for the officers that continued to pin his neck and chest for a minute after it was confirmed that he had no pulse?

The four officers that were arrested were exposed to an active case of Covid-19. One was overweight, Chauvin worked two high stress jobs. Assume they were heavy coffee drinkers. They were very stressed after being fired. If a knee was pressed into their necks for four minutes after they passed out would their deaths be a coincidence? Covid? High Blood Pressure? Maybe Negligence on behalf of the officers that put their knees on the necks?

For better or worse this week tens or hundreds of thousands of people have first hand experience with police brutality. There's a few interesting reddit pages worth looking at. https://www.reddit.com/r/Bad_Cop_No_Donut
https://www.reddit.com/r/FakeProtesters/

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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by Fallschirmjaager » Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:31 pm

This debate isn't about whether or not Floyd and Chauvin had history. It's also not about whether or not Floyd was on drugs. It's also not about whether or not the police are good people or bad people because the simple fact is that the legal system the police are employed to enforce is tyrannical and oppressive, not just to people of color but to anyone who isn't politically connected.

This thread is about how if you aren't 100% down to show up armed and protect the protesters, then your guns are just costume jewelry and nothing you say about the defense of liberty matters; you're nothing more than a cosplayer. This thread is about putting up or shutting up.
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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by poikilotrm » Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:29 pm

The moments I was censored was the moment that I won. That's twice, now.Thanks jwbaker, et al, for my victories.

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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by poikilotrm » Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:30 pm

Fallschirmjaager wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:31 pm
This thread is about how if you aren't 100% down to show up armed and protect the protesters,
Protect people who hate me, want to kill me, and want to rob me? No, thanks, I'll pass. You might as well ask me to show up in support of the cops.
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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by 0101silent » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:22 am

Fallschirmjaager wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:31 pm
This debate isn't about whether or not Floyd and Chauvin had history. It's also not about whether or not Floyd was on drugs. It's also not about whether or not the police are good people or bad people because the simple fact is that the legal system the police are employed to enforce is tyrannical and oppressive, not just to people of color but to anyone who isn't politically connected.

This thread is about how if you aren't 100% down to show up armed and protect the protesters, then your guns are just costume jewelry and nothing you say about the defense of liberty matters; you're nothing more than a cosplayer. This thread is about putting up or shutting up.
Fallschirmjaager, aren't you and your cop buddies and trainees already at the protests? On the peoples clock being paid to serve and protect peaceful protesters? You and your buddies are armed, have arrest powers, and qualified immunity if there was a legal mistake. If you or your cop buddies see officers engaging in illegal behavior make an arrest. Use force if necessary.

Fallschirmjaager, the Internet Provocateur. Put up or shut up? Your team is clearly putting up. In every city the peaceful protesters are being attacked while the looters and rioters remain unmolested. What is your goal?

The peaceful protest is a powerful tool when used against a violent police force. 10's of thousands of people that thought that there were only a few bad apples now have first hand experience with police brutality and the legal system. Unarmed people are letting themselves be attacked to show the whole world how the police behave, and now the world knows that its not just a few bad apples.

By not engaging the rioters and looters the police are showing the world that they are cowards that are afraid of anyone with a truly violent potential.

The peaceful protesters have caused the police to lose any credibility that they had.

The peaceful protests showed the world that the police can't win. It's obvious that the police don't have military discipline or endurance. Realistically how long can police wear riot gear and gas masks in the summer?

The Peaceful Protesters are doing all this without arms and without the intent of harming anyone. Is that what you resent?

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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by poikilotrm » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:14 am

0101silent wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:22 am
Fallschirmjaager, the Internet Provocateur. Put up or shut up? Your team is clearly putting up. In every city the peaceful protesters are being attacked while the looters and rioters remain unmolested. What is your goal?
Let's not forget that the cops are ignoring looters, but they eagerly attack and arrest business owners who are defending their property.

During hurricane Katrina, the cops eagerly went after decent people, and disarmed and arrested them, but ignored looters. It is a pattern seen again and again.

Anybody who thinks that cops are good and honorable is a flat out fool.
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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by noname » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:00 pm

The so called mainstream media carries a modicum of blame. They seem to salivate on fear and wild-eyed viewers that cannot take their eyes off the national news (as well as their commercials). The more shocking, the better.

I just don't watch news much. Seen one, you have seen them all.

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Re: What we should do about the riots

Post by T-Rex » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:28 pm

Fallschirmjaager wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 9:16 am
If we bring our guns out, not to shoot looters, not to kill cops, but as a show of force in the defense of liberty, if we behave as strong, free, dignified men, gently and empathetically but with terrible power held in check by our own calm, the conversation will be FORCED to shift to something more productive.
I hear what you're saying, but it won't go how you think.
At Virginia's January gun rally, tens of thousands of armed protesters gathered around the Capital (Virginia State).
Yet, gun bills were still passed.
Even more, hundreds of articles were written, w/ the intent to show how crazy/radical/irresponsible/racist gun owners are. Barely any were written or gained traction that showed the truth. Just how peaceful the protesters were, the lack of need for policing, how clean the area was afterwards, etc.

The "protesters" are looting, committing arson, among a multitude of felonies, and they're being painted as saints for the cause. It's completely reversed logic.
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