AAR: EAG Tactical (Pat Rogers) Lakeland, FL Dec 2009

[rob_s]

EAG Tactical Carbine Operators, Southern Exposure Training Facility, Lakeland, FL 11-13 December 2009

This was my fourth time with Pat and Mike in Lakeland. It's been interesting over the years to see how the classes morph and change and what new lessons and drills they bring with them.

For those that haven't attended one of Pat's classes, everything is building one lesson on another from the first shot fired to the last, stringing skills together and building and stacking them as the drills get more and more complex.

TD1 began with a discussion of safety and then moved quickly on to gear. Magazines, optics, etc. Pat gets to see a lot of gear every year, and spending the morning getting a little bit of insight into that experience is one of the benefits of attending EAG classes. The shooting began shortly before lunch when we all moved out to the 50 for a lesson on prone before checking and getting a zero at 50 yards.

shooters getting their zero




After lunch we moved close in to work on mechanical offset of optics as well as trigger control. Drills were fired with each step on command starting from the 3 yard line and then repeated at various distances out to the 15. Drill was fire, holding the trigger to the rear, ease to reset, fire again, ease to reset and fire a third time, all done on the verbal command.

Pat demonstrates drill


shooters working the drill a little further out




We next learned several target engagement methods that we would use over the course of the three days to include controlled pairs, hammers, failure drills, and tthe Non-Standard Response (NSR). We then worked these drills at various distances from the 5 to the 25 yard line.

student fires NSR




Then it was on to the 25 yard line where Pat and Mike demonstrated various positions from braced kneel, to quick kneel, double kneel ("Monica") and squat.

Pat and Mike demonstrating squat


students work Monica from high, low, leaning right, leaning left




The next skill is the speed reload. As usual Pat and Mike demonstrate, and then we get our chance to try it and practice what they demonstrate. The building begins from here. We begin to string the basics together by firing a drill going from standing to kneeling to prone with a speed reload in between. While this may sound like a simplistic drill, it is deceiving based on the number of shooters that bumble such a seemingly easy drill.

shooter reloads before going to prone (note two magazines on the deck, first from standing to kneeling)




We finished the day going over controlled pairs, hammers, failure drills, and NSRs at close range again

shooters finishing out TD1


more to follow.

[Mongo]

I would be interested to here about what arms were used and which ones seemed to have issues during the class.

[seacoastnh]

Nice job, thanks for taking the time to put the post together.

I second Mongo's request and would like to know what optics were being used. It appears from the photos that aim point is popular.

[Omega_556]

EAG conducted a Carbine Operators Course at the Southern Exposure Training Center 11-13Dec2009.

This was an open enrollment class of cops, mil and civilians. Zombiehunter was back again, adding a touch of reality. He was (of course) awesome, and Planet Terror has nothing on this guy. Gentle Ben was there, and I left one of my M&P’s in his hands for the treatment.
Rob_S was also back, and while his shooting was less then he would have liked, his bad days are usually better than others good ones.

WX was typical for December here. T1 was overcast and cool in the mid 50’s. T2 was partly sunny in the mid 70’s with none of the forecast rain. T3 was mostly sunny with temps in the mid 80’s.

Equipment:

With what has become disturbingly regular, one student broke a PRI charging handle (the pin failed) on T2. I replaced it with a BCM Gunfighter CH and all was well.

The T&E M6A3 (#28) had some feeding issues that we believe might be a dead action spring at 11210 rds. Unfortunately we used up our last one at the last class, so diagnosis will have to wait.
This probably exceeded the life of the spring in any event, but we’ll figure it out when we RTB.

News Flash! After cleaning your carbine, and when reassembling it, the firing pin goes in first- and then the firing pin retaining pin.

Not the other way around.

Just sayin’……J

Rob S had a lot of problems with wolf ammunition. He had a rash of stuck cases in both his Colt 6933 and his Bravo Company gun. A brisk chamber cleaning removed the Russkie gunk and the guns ran well.

There was a run of missing primers as well as primers that failed to function. Ammo QC is- by and large- in the dumper.

One shooter was running a borrowed POF which had a string of annoying cycling problems.
The owner is going to shitcan it.

Go figure.

Our Bravo Company #14 (Filthy 14) went over 28905 rds- more than we have fired with any of our T&E guns.
We’ll never claim that we do testing on these guns. I don’t have the education, background of resources to do an actual test. All we do is put the guns in the hands of the students (and at times, me) and observe and record what transpires.
Nevertheless, putting high rounds counts through multiple guns by the same manufacturer gives up some useful information.
We have more BCM guns in the armory than any other. There is a reason for this….

One thing that never fails to amaze/ disappoint me is how many people treat these classes as shooting rather than fighting. We’ll see this when students yank their carbines down immediately after firing- apparently in order to see where their shots have gone and then to bask in their awesomeness.
We teach not to take yourself out of the fight too soon. Consider engaging in prone. When standing you should be increasing your SA as when you rise from the deck you will not only see more – but the enemy will often see more of you.
Prematurely removing yourself from the fight flies in the face of the fact that the enemy has a vote in when the fight is over.
Yet we see guys finish shooting and switch off, They will point the rifle and their eyes down at the deck when they stand, and even though they have been properly instructed from 0800 on T1 to the very end of T3, they still manage to avoid the potential unpleasantness that may be waiting for them if they keep their eyes open.

It is not about shooting. It is about fighting. In this case with a gun, but fighting nonetheless.

[rob_s]

If I had to hazard a guess I would say that at least 50% of the 24 students, and maybe more like 75%, were using a T-1/H-1, and I recall seeing only one Eotech and two Millets (cheap red dot, took an allen wrench to adjust), meaning almost 90% of the students had an Aimpoint of some kind.

Unsure on the pedigree of the majority of the carbines. The SCAR was a loaner from Pat that I ran through a few drills. He also had several loaner BCM guns, and a loaner LWRCi. The only loaner gun that I saw issues with wat the LWRCi. One student was shooting a POF that he borrowed from the range owner, and this gun has had problems in the past and problems in this class as well.

I had some issues with my 6933 but I think they were related to a combination of Wolf and the buffer I had in the gun as the carbine has run 100% on this lot of Wolf in the past and the only thing that changed was the buffer.

Ammo issues far outweighed gun issues. Saw more than one dud round, and more than one round with no primer at all. A couple of doublefeeds that resulted in shitcanning the offending magazines.

I'll try to get TD2 up tomorrow. I find it interesting, and somewhat disturbing, that people are more interested in the gun/gear issues than they are the training.

[Mongo]

I'm interested in the training issues as well but I did not think that would require any prompting to get the info from you.

Its also from the engineering stand point that I'm interested in the gear issues and what might be something that can be better designed and marketed.

[rob_s]

Pat does a pretty good job of tracking the issues, but this is the second time I've trained with him where ammo was the primary cause of at least 50% of the problems observed. Beyond that, load carriage becomes the secondary issue as people seem unwilling to un-F--k themselves at home before a class. chest rigs with straps or webbing that covers their holster, pouches placed so that their draw-stroke is impeded, guys running drop-legs that normally wear IWB concealment holsters that can't figure out where the pistol is, etc.

What I find truly odd is that people will shell out for the classes (minimum $1k between tuition, ammo, travel expenses) but then cheap out by $200 on optics or load carriage. Having quality, un-fucked guns and gear definitely frees up the student to focus on the training and the learning. I can tell you that my own ammo issues totally sidetracked my brain, resulting in...

[Mongo]

It is amazing the amount of ammo issues. Given the amount of ammunition I shoot, I have not had any of the issues but all my 5.56 is LC86 vintage ammo. I have used 1 case of Fiochi which I bought since I hate delinking the LC stuff and the ammo is s--t for accuracy but has been very reliable. I have 3 cases of Prvi that I have set back but have not gotten around to shooting any of it.

As to optics, I often have to wonder about this as well. It is not just the AR guys but the fuds are just as bad if not worse. The number of times I see guys with the high end $2K bolt guns with sub $100 Simons scopes on them make me wonder. Back when companies would take us out deer hunting, I would go with several of the engineers from the plants. They all made good money and could afford quality equipment. Well one ranch was being game managed and we were instructed to only shoot 8 pts or better or a doe. Well every morning as usual had some fog and the deer were running at dawn and dusk only. All of the guys were complaining that they could not count points due to their shitty optics (though they did not recognize it was the shitty scopes at teh time). They had been giving me s--t about my "large scope" on my M1A and when I showed them the difference it was like a light switch came on. first question was "how much?" and when told they all balked saying that it was as much as their rifle cost. Tried explaining the importance of the optics and that cost should be around the cost of the gun but they did not get it. I drove home the point by being the only one to nail a 10 pt.

[rob_s]

TD2 started off with a reconfirm of zero at 50 yards. I find it generally interesting that zeros seem to wander, but I have a theory that it's not the rifle that changes, it's the shooter. At the beginning of each day the shooter has another full day of hundreds of trigger presses and sight pictures under their belt, and I think that improves their abilities just enough that their groups start to get a little more dialed in, which results in the ability to further fine-tune the zero.

students confirming zero at the start of TD2




Actually, I'm a little ahead of myself. The range has a zoning restriction and we can't start shooting before 09:00 and the better instructors take advantage of this time to work on dryfire drills and Pat was no different, using the hour before firing to demonstrate turning to the left and turning to the right.

Pat demonstrating turns




After we got through the zeroing portion of the morning we moved right into malfunction clearances. We set up various types of malfunctions and then go through the steps to clear them on command, before being instructed to fire a certain drill and being left to clear the malfunction on our own.

student clears a double-feed




As mentioned previously, Pat instructs the students on the basics of shooting and manipulations and then we string those skills together in various drills that make use of those skills and test the student's ability to perform the skills under mild (or for some, major) stress. One of those drills is the Modified Navy Qual where the shooter begins with three 5-round magazines and fires 5 rounds standing, 5 rounds kneeling, and 5 rounds prone with an emergency reload in between. On TD1 you do this drill from the 25, and on TD2 it's the 35 yard line.

student reloads on his way to prone




The transition to pistol is the fastest and most reliable way to deal with a stoppage in the carbine at close range. Not only is it faster to retrieve the pistol than to diagnose and/or speed reload the carbine (given that the shooter has previously un-fucked their gear), but it is more reliable in that you are going from a known failing carbine to a known functional pistol (provided that the shooter remembers to check/load the pistol beforehand).

Pat demonstrates the transition to pistol


students work the drill




Multiple target engagement. Firing on a pair of targets there are any number of ways that they may be engaged. For the purposes of training, we use the previous firing drills of hammer, controlled pair, failure drill, and NSR and string them together in different ways to engage the two targets. One such way is to fire a single shot on the first target, a hammer to the second, and finish with a single shot back on the first. often called "boarding house rules" or "roadhouse rules" (no idea where those names came from, so don't ask). Another is to fire a hammer to each. A third is a "box drill" where you fire a hammer to the first target, a failure drill to the second, and finish with a brain shot to the first. Firing these drills in a a training environment is as much, if not more, about thinking on your feet and maintaining your situational awareness, as well as learning to deal with swinging the muzzle from side to side and finding your target, as it is about teaching a prescribed drill for dealing with two live threats.

Once we have that out of the way, we get to shooting on the move. Mike demonstrates several examples of what NOT to do, as well as the proper technique for bending at the knees to get a stable firing platform while moving over uneven ground. We then fired various drills moving in from various distances.

shooting on the move







We finished out TD2 again stringing various drills together by shooting multiple targets on the move with a transition to pistol. We built to this by starting wtih the shooting on he move, then adding in engaging multiple targets on the move, and then adding in the transition to pistol. Taking multiple tasks from earlier blocks of instruction and adding in one at a time until the shooters are accurately completing the more complex tasks

engaging multiple targets on the move







and doing so under Pat's watchful eye

[noiseless]

Rob

Excellent information. Looks like a good time had by all

[goteron]

Rob,

I notice a lot of guys are wearing the padded belts, yourself included. How do they ride when running / moving? Do you have a picture of your setup? How many carbine mags do you have on there? Is that the SOC-C you are using? How does it fit with your mayflower carrier? Any interference when bending any directions? Thanks

[rob_s]

It is a SOC-C. I have two AR mags and two pistol mags attached. I had no shifting or other issues with the belt and I used it for two of the three days, with day two being with the armor as well. I have pictures coming of that.

My biggest concern with the belts is that a lot of people pair them with a drop-leg holster which I think is a horrible idea if you're not using a drop-leg operationally. I went to a lot of trouble to make my holster location on the padded belt match the holster location of my CCW as closely as possible. I'll have some pictures to demonstrate that as well.

[goteron]

I was looking at taking a local magpul class, and the requirement was for (4) primary mags on your person, not sure what Pats requirements are, do you have a active shooter bag, or just switch mags when off the line? I would have my holster like you have yours, I could never comfortably wear a drop leg, especially when moving. Have you timed your reloads from a chest rig and from the belt? Any other noticable improvements over a chest rig or similar setup. Is that a lube holder to the right of your holster? Thanks

[rob_s]

Pat requires 5 mags. One in the gun, 4 on your person. However, TD1 is usually lighter, and having trained with Pat 3 times before this I knew that going in, so I knew I could get away with just the belt on TD1. Went to the line with one in the dump pouch, and the two on the belt, for the entire first day and used the one in the dump pouch to load the gun.

My chest rig holds two mags as well, so when I used that on TD2 and TD3 I had the ability to go to the line with the required number of magazines.

Good ammo management will also get you around the required number of mags, although Magpul classes are very round-count-heavy so that may not apply there where you're more likely to truly exhaust that load-out in a single relay.

As for the reload question, I have certain concepts re: load carriage that would probably answer that a little better.
http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/56227.html

The last pouch in front of the holster is an old Leatherman PSTII which I don't think they make anymore unfortunately. I have a pouch for a Wave on my chest rig.

I would typically not use the battle belt and the chest rig/armor together. The purpose of the battle belt, for me, is to have a simple load-out that I can easily strap on and off. Generally I would prefer to use my CCW setup for the pistol, add a single AR mag to the belt, and the chest rig on top of all that.